Interview with Li Xueqin

Multidisciplinary and Multidisciplinary Exploration of Ancient Civilization in China —— An Interview with Professor Li Xueqin

(History Teaching April 2007): ■: What I want to ask is that young people are very interested in how you became a famous contemporary scholar. I hope you can talk about your personal study or knowledge and what experience you have, so that young people can learn from it.

●: I am often asked this question. I told them that my road was not enough for training. This is not my courtesy, because my road is simple, but it is very special, and few people are like me. I don't study literature and history. Although I was admitted to the philosophy department in Tsinghua, I didn't study the history of philosophy. Although I later had many years of ideological history with Mr. Hou Wailu. I came to Tsinghua to study mathematical logic. At that time, mathematical logic and philosophy were inseparable. You know Russell and Whitehead are engaged in mathematical logic. It was mr jin yuelin who systematically introduced mathematical logic to China. On a very accidental occasion, I read mr jin yuelin's Logic. When I read this book from beginning to end, I yearned for mathematical logic. 195 1 Because I studied mathematical logic, I decided to apply for Tsinghua. So I came to Tsinghua not to study literature and history, but to study philosophy. Unlike a classroom full of students facing a teacher, at that time only a few students often went to Mr. Jin's house to listen to his lectures, and that's how learning was done. Learning from Mr. Jin is not only learning his knowledge, but also learning to be a man in front of him.

I spent some time in Tsinghua. 1952, there would be no arts and sciences in Tsinghua. At that time, I did some work in studying Oracle Bone Inscriptions and went to the Institute of Archaeology of Chinese Academy of Sciences.

■: How did you get interested in Oracle Bone Inscriptions so early?

●: When I was a child, I liked things I didn't know much about. At first glance, I don't know them. This is my favorite, especially the symbolic thing. I am good at math, but I don't want to learn math. Mathematical logic is like this, people can't understand it, there are almost no words, they are all symbols. It's the same in Oracle Bone Inscriptions, so I like it. 1950, when I was 17 years old, I became interested in Oracle Bone Inscriptions. The exact meaning of that string of unknown words, the ancestors' thinking hidden in Oracle Bone Inscriptions, deeply attracted me. I often go to the Beijing Library in Jinwen Street by bike to read books on this subject.

■: So you taught yourself Oracle Bone Inscriptions? Don't you have a teacher to guide you?

●: It is self-study. It was very convenient to read in Beijing Library at that time. Borrowing books such as Oracle Bone Inscriptions, I met Mr. Zeng, the head of the library's epigraphy department. With Mr. Zeng's help, I can not only read the catalogued books, but also have the opportunity to see many books and rubbings specially collected in the library, and my vision is gradually broadened.

At that time, I carefully read the Anyang Excavation Report and China Archaeological Newspaper, and also read the preface of Dong Zuobin's Oracle Bone Inscriptions Dating Research Case and Yin Ruins Wen Zi A and B. I have also read Mr. Chen's article. His Oracle Bone Inscriptions dating is being published in Yanjing Journal and other publications. I found that his views on the dating of Oracle Bone Inscriptions, that is, what we now call the staging of Oracle Bone Inscriptions, are somewhat different from those of Mr. Dong. Later, I read Japanese and Ito Doji's Re-examination of Oracle Bone Inscriptions Dating Research, and their views are close to Mr. Chen's. In a word, I have been interested in Oracle Bone Inscriptions's research. Of course, I should also master some related knowledge, such as philology, phonology and so on, which I learned by myself.

■: 1952 You should be a sophomore. How can you work in an archaeological institute? Tell me about the specific situation.

●: 1952 Mr. Chen was transferred from the Chinese Department of Tsinghua University to the Institute of Archaeology of China Academy of Sciences. At that time, Mr. Guo Ruoyu compiled A and B of Yin Ruins and sent the manuscript to Mr. Guo Moruo, President of China Academy of Sciences. Mr Guo handed the manuscript to the Institute of Archaeology, whose director is Mr Zheng Zhenduo. Mr. Zheng asked Mr. Chen for advice, and Mr. Chen thought the manuscript could be further supplemented. At that time, Mr. Zeng of Beijing Library was already very famous in Oracle Bone Inscriptions, so I asked Mr. Zeng to do it, and I also took part in this work, so I came to 1952 Institute of Archaeology of China Academy of Sciences. This work was completed on 1954, and the result is a collection of Yin Ruins, Guo Ruoyu and Zeng, which was published by Science Press on 1955, with Zheng Zhenduo as the preface and Mr. Chen as the author.

■: Here, I would also like you to explain what is called "Yin Ruins Text Conjugation"? What is the significance of doing this?

●: When Oracle bones were discovered, most of them were broken, so some scholars have pointed out that Oracle bone conjugation is the most urgent and basic work if you want to see a complete record of Oracle bones. Connecting and restoring Oracle Bone Inscriptions fragments originally belonging to the same plate is called joining. In addition, the association between different versions of Oracle Bone Inscriptions is called permutation spectrum.

■: Were you not influenced by your family when you were in Oracle Bone Inscriptions?

●: No, my father works in a hospital, but I like it myself. But an accidental situation may make me a different person. Let me tell you something:

1945 entered middle school, 1948 graduated from junior high school. At that time, there were two higher industrial schools in Peiping, both of which were very famous: one was Beiping Municipal Higher Industrial School and the other was Beiping National Higher Industrial School. The municipal government is in the north of Dongsi, and the national government is behind Baita Temple. The senior municipal engineer is now north china university of technology, in Shijingshan; Senior national engineer, now Beijing University of Technology. At that time, the National Senior High School was a famous school in China. After graduating from school, it's quite a junior college. It took five or six years to finish college courses, and the school also took care of meals. At that time, the exam was not easy. 1948 Kuomintang is going to collapse, and life is even worse. The situation in our family is quite good, and we still have food. Junior high school is studying in Huiwen Middle School. /kloc-in the summer of 0/948, I went to the national high school. I did well in the exam, ranking first in the electrical department. But a strange thing happened to me and changed my fate. At that time, senior national engineers requested that students be admitted to Peiping Tuberculosis Association for physical examination and filming. Give me a notice after the physical examination, which says "infiltration tuberculosis at the top of both lungs stage II". This was a terrible thing at that time, because there was no specific medicine. This is not a question of whether you can go to school, but whether you can save your life. I can't live with this disease, it's dangerous. I was really devastated. I didn't think about it at that time and was taken aback. Later, I went to other hospitals for examination, and nothing happened at all. Later, I went to the Tuberculosis Association to ask, and they said there was something wrong with the film. But I was too scared to go to this school again, but the school also looked for me because I was the first one. If I go, I will probably stay in the Soviet Union. At that time, many high school students stayed in the Soviet Union and may become factory directors when they come back. You see, a very accidental thing may change a person's life trajectory.

■: It seems that your growing experience is really unique. You didn't master professional knowledge and skills through school training and then join the work like most people. What inspiration does this experience have for contemporary youth?

●: If my experience is of any help to contemporary youth, I can say that there was no utilitarian purpose in studying at that time. A few years ago, a reporter from Science Times visited me and asked me what I thought of current education. I said that the main problem of education now is utilitarianism, and what science can't tolerate most is utilitarianism, and utilitarianism can't have a real invention. I was a child and a poor student at that time, but I never wanted to learn anything to make money. The living conditions at that time were far worse than now. At that time, I could only buy used books, but I was afraid to buy new books. I used to go to second-hand bookstores, second-hand bookstores, and everyone in bookstores knew me. Today, I still keep in good contact with China Bookstore. Because when I was a child, I dealt with old books. I not only buy books, but also sell them. I often buy and sell them, and sometimes I buy books without eating. At that time, I liked science and wanted to be a scientist, but I didn't have utilitarian ideas in my mind. It's all based on interest. If from the utilitarian point of view, why should I do this? This is the least profitable business. If there is a utilitarian purpose, there will be no achievements in science. I wonder if you agree with me?

Children begin to cultivate utilitarian thoughts from kindergarten. From an early age, we should consider finding a good kindergarten, attending a good primary school, attending a good primary school, attending a good middle school and a good university, and then going abroad to earn money. How do you think he has the energy to think about scientific creation? ■: Before the Cultural Revolution, you had been engaged in historical research with Mr. Hou Wailu for a long time. Can you recall this situation?

●: Mr. Hou Wailu is one of the top five Marxist historians in China. How did I work with him? This is also the reason why I went from archaeology to history. I met Hou Wailu through a gentleman from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. He appreciates me very much. He is a relative of Mr. Hou Wailu. He introduced me to Mr. Hou. The Institute of History was established in 1954 and the Institute of Archaeology was established in 1950. 1950 when China academy of sciences was founded, there were both institutes of archaeology and modern history. 1953 decided to establish the institute of history, which was divided into one and two. When Mr. Hou was the president of Northwest University, he was appointed as the deputy director of two research institutes. He went to the second institute to do preparatory work, and I was still in the archaeological institute. At that time, my position had not been decided. He said you should go to history college. Mr. Hou asked me to follow him and be his assistant. Mr. Hou is a great historian. Although he mainly studies the history of thought, he actually studies everything. He wrote many things, ancient and modern. I followed Mr. Hou until the Cultural Revolution. During the Cultural Revolution, I was seconded to National Cultural Heritage Administration to sort out the newly discovered cultural relics. It was not until 1978 that I returned to my present history college. Soon, the directors of the older generation will retire. I have two choices. One is in the research room of ideological history, and the other is in the research room of pre-Qin history, replacing Mr. Hu Houxuan as the director. With Mr. Hou's permission, I went to the pre-Qin history research room.

■: Did you participate in Mawangdui and other projects during the Cultural Revolution?

●: Yes, that's a very happy thing. At that time, academic work stopped and only such projects could be done. I have been to cadre schools, but not for a long time. 1970 I went to school, and Lao Guo wanted to revise the historical draft of China in 197 1 year, so he transferred me back. But the Draft History of China can't do it either. After discovering Mawangdui silk, the Cultural Relics Bureau tried to transfer me, but nothing happened here. I officially passed it at the beginning of 1975. Actually, I started writing articles on this subject from 1974 and didn't come back until 1978.

■: So the Cultural Revolution didn't cause you much delay?

●: No, it's a big delay! A few years ago, I put forward a proposal in the CPPCC, suggesting oral history, especially for some old scholars to talk about what they want to do but have no time to do. Some publishers are very interested, and they will come to talk to me about it soon. I was going to do a lot of research, but it's a pity to waste such a long time.

■: You have studied Oracle Bone Inscriptions for more than 50 years, and you have your own achievements in the study of Oracle Bone Inscriptions's stages. But since the 1960s, you seem to have shifted the focus of your research to bronze inscriptions and bronzes. Is this change also due to your personal interests?

●: In the 1950s, I tried my best to explore this aspect, starting from Oracle Bone Inscriptions, studying and sorting out the Warring States script. In the 1960s, I felt that I had not accumulated enough, so I turned to study bronze inscriptions and bronzes.

■: You have made great achievements in bronze ware research. The book Mystery of Chinese Bronze was published in 1980, Research on New Bronze was published in 1990, and Overview of Chinese Bronze was published in 1996. You also summarized the history and methods of bronze ware research. You once said that ancient bronzes were an important factor in the ancient culture of China. Can you explain it further?

●: OK, this question is worth discussing. China's ancient bronzes, like China's ancient jades, are the most important cultural factors in ancient China, and they are also very prominent in the world. The study of Chinese bronzes can be traced back to the Han Dynasty. In the era of Emperor Wu of the Han Dynasty, there were records of collecting bronzes. Later, when Xuan Di was in the Han Dynasty, there was a man named Zhang Chang who studied and explained the inscriptions on bronzes. In the Northern Song Dynasty, there began to be a special description of bronzes. This is the archaeological map of Lu Dalin and the atlas of Xuanhe Bo Gu, mainly bronze wares. Therefore, it can be said that the bronze research tradition of China epigraphy was formed and matured in the Northern Song Dynasty. The symbol of modern bronze ware research is Guo Moruo's Two-week Series of Golden Characters published in 193 1. It is no exaggeration to say that this book has created a new situation in many aspects and played an epoch-making role in the study of Chinese bronzes. It is characterized by the systematic arrangement of bronze inscriptions and the pioneering study of bronze shapes. Then, it was Mr. Rong Geng who made a comprehensive study of bronzes. His "A General Examination of Shang and Zhou Yi Qi" is a comprehensive and systematic study of bronzes. For a long time, the research on Chinese bronzes mainly focused on bronze inscriptions. In 1930s, the international research on Chinese bronzes was systematically organized according to typology, with emphasis on the shape and ornamentation of bronzes. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, Mr. Chen combined these two methods, forming a new situation in bronze ware research.

■: You also advocate using archeological typology to open up a new situation in bronze ware research, right?

●: I think there should be new progress in bronze ware research, which is based on archaeology. This is what we have to do. Because until Mr. Chen, that is, in the 1950 s, the archaeological data of bronzes were still very limited, and it was impossible to use archaeological data as the basis for bronze research. After more than 50 years of archaeological excavation, although the materials are not as good as handed down from ancient times in some aspects, the system of bronze ware research can be further established based on archaeological materials. Handwritten works can be used as a supplement to learning, but the basis of learning should be archaeology.

Since the study of bronzes is based on archaeology, we should not only study bronze inscriptions as the main body of the study, but also study them from multiple levels and angles, at least from five aspects: shape, decoration, inscription, function and technology.

■: Since 1970s, you have presided over or participated in the arrangement of bamboo slips of Mawangdui Han Tomb, Zhushan Bamboo Slips in Dingxian County, Yunmeng Qin Slips and Zhangjiashan Bamboo Slips. Your research on the above-mentioned bamboo slips, as well as the bamboo slips of Changsha, Baoshan, Guodian and Shanghai Museum, have made great contributions. Can you review your participation in sorting out these slips?

●: 1972, a large number of bamboo slips were unearthed in the No.1 tomb of Lushan Mountain in Linyi, Shandong Province, which belonged to the early years of Emperor Wu of Han Dynasty. The most important ones were Sun Tzu's Art of War and Sun Bin's Art of War. 1973, a large number of silk books and bamboo slips were unearthed from Mawangdui No.3 tomb in Changsha, Hunan Province, among which Zhouyi, Laozi and other silk books were the most, dating back to the early Han Dynasty. Silk books cover ancient philosophy, history, medicine, science and technology and many other aspects. There are several books, most of which are lost. The discovery of these lost books seems to have opened an underground library, which is a rock-breaking event. I was involved in the splicing and research of silk books.

1975, a large number of bamboo slips of the Qin Dynasty were unearthed in a small tomb at TombNo. 1 1 in Yunmeng Shuihudi, Hubei Province. This is the first time I have seen Qin people's handwriting written in ink. At that time, I went directly to the scene and saw a coffin full of bamboo slips, mainly the laws of the Qin Dynasty. 1977, bamboo slips, including The Book of Changes and The Book of Songs, were also unearthed in No.1 Tomb of Shuanggudui, Fuyang, Anhui Province. 1983, a large number of bamboo slips were unearthed from Tomb No.247 in Zhangjiashan, Jiangling, Hubei Province, mainly from the laws of the Lv Hou era in the early Han Dynasty. 1993, a large number of Chu bamboo books of the Warring States Period were unearthed in Tomb No.1 of Guodian, Jingmen, Hubei Province, which were works of Confucianism and Taoism, including Laozi of Taoism and Zisizi of Confucianism. Around the same time, Chu bamboo slips from another tomb were stolen and spread to Hong Kong. 1994 was bought back by Shanghai Museum, and its content is similar to Guodian bamboo slips, mainly Confucian and Taoist books. There are many small discoveries, so I won't introduce them here.

Bamboo slips and silk books let us see the true colors of ancient works, and many lost books have not even been seen by Sima Qian, Liu Xiang and Liu Xin. A series of discoveries have prompted scholars to change their views on ancient books for a long time. Many "fake books" that have been suspected and denied for a long time have been cleared up, and there are still many ancient books, so their times have been clarified and valued by scholars. People gradually realize that some aspects of history, especially academic history and ideological history, have been rewritten. ■: 1995, you are appointed as the chief scientist and the leader of the expert group of "Xia, Shang and Zhou Dating Project", which belongs to a major project of chronology research. Is it another new field for you to study pre-Qin history and culture?

●: What is the "Weekly Blind Date Project"? To put it simply, the "Xia, Shang and Zhou Dating Project" is a project that combines natural science with humanities and social sciences to study the chronology of the three historical periods in China history. Chronology studies ancient times, which is to give a time scale to ancient history. The dating project of Xia, Shang and Zhou Dynasties is to study the chronology of Xia, Shang and Zhou Dynasties.

"Cycle-by-cycle project" is a large-scale project established according to the principle of system engineering. At that time, in our feasibility report, it was stipulated to set up 9 topics and 36 special topics, and 200 experts and scholars directly participated. Finally, we still have 9 projects. According to the progress of the project, the number of projects will be appropriately increased to 44. After five years of collective efforts, we finally reached the predetermined goal and formulated the chronology of Xia, Shang and Zhou Dynasties. In September, 2000, the project successfully passed the expert acceptance organized by the Ministry of Science and Technology. In the same year 1 1.9, the project office of "Xia, Shang and Zhou Dating Project" held a press conference, which officially announced the phased results. The Phased Results Report of Xia, Shang and Zhou Dating Project 1996-2000 and the Simplified Edition were also officially published. 200 1 spring, was rated as a major achievement of the scientific and technological research plan during the ninth five-year plan period.

■: The results of this "project" have been published for six years. Do you want to review the significance of this project today?

It is often said that there are four ancient civilizations in the world, including ancient Egypt, ancient Mesopotamia, ancient India and China. Among the four ancient civilizations, China is the only one. A civilization that has lasted for thousands of years can be said to be a brilliant miracle in human history. However, the long history of China civilization is beyond doubt, and we need to make it clear. It is not enough to say that it is written in ancient books. In fact, the exact historical age of our country can only be traced back to 84 BC1year. Because the first year of Sima Qian's Historical Records of Twelve Governors Wang Jinian was * * * and the first year of the Western Zhou Dynasty, which was 84 BC1year. Of course, the earliest exact age of several other ancient civilizations is also around this time, because the development of human history is like this, and the older it is, the more blurred it becomes. Is there room for further development? It's not that there is no, but that there is no accepted statement. The situation in foreign countries is the same, with many differences and ambiguities, but through repeated research by scholars, there is a relatively recognized statement. There is no such recognized chronology in ancient China, which is a great deficiency. Do we have a history of 5,000 years of civilization? What is the level of civilization development? This is beyond the explanation of our patriotic enthusiasm, but needs scientific demonstration, and we should carry out scientific research very seriously.

■: "Xia, Shang and Zhou Dynasties Dating Project" caused controversy overseas. How to treat these disputes?

●: "Weekly Dating Project" is a large-scale project. In the course of our project, there are most meetings, and sometimes scholars who are not involved in our project are invited because we have to listen to different opinions. The project is multidisciplinary, and it is normal for everyone to have different opinions. Foreign scholars have different views, and domestic scholars also have different views. As long as it is an academic opinion on this issue, we welcome it, as I said at the seminar of the Asian Research Association of the United States. ■: In the 1990s, you wrote Out of the Age of Doubting the Ancient. I wonder if you said that to explore the ancient civilization of China, we must first get rid of the ideological trend of doubting the ancient times?

●: There is a very basic feature in China's traditional culture, that is, people always think that the older everything is, the better, so more than three generations is the golden age in human history. Ancient classics have become the core of the whole learning. China people reached the19th century, and some even read the classics of the early 20th century. At the end of 19, due to the rise of western learning and the development of the times, the Qing government had to order the abolition of the imperial examination, the establishment of schools, and the replacement of reading classics with new disciplines. During this period, Kang Youwei's Textual Research on New Learning and Textual Research on Confucius' Reform denied the traditional China people's "view of the past", which was the beginning of the trend of suspecting the past.

Since the late Qing Dynasty, the ideological trend of suspecting the ancient times has been progressive, which is a great progress, because it has kicked over all the ancient historical idols at that time and played a role in emancipating the mind. Of course it's good. But there are also side effects. Skeptics in ancient times often went too far in denying ancient times, especially created a lot of "unjust, false and wrong cases" against ancient books, which can't be unfair today.

When Mr. Feng Youlan prefaced the sixth volume of Ancient History, he once talked about a "syllogism", that is, "believing in the ancient-doubting the ancient-interpreting the ancient". We should talk about both methods and theories. If we combine literature research with archaeological research, we will be able to reevaluate the whole ancient civilization of China.

■: In your speech "Brilliant Early Civilization in China", you first mentioned the "length" of early civilization in China. When can the history of this "length" be traced back vertically?

●: That's what I mean. When we talk about the 5,000-year-old civilization in China, if we read the books of some foreign scholars, many people think that the origin of China civilization began in Shang Dynasty, about 1600 BC. Some people even say that Oracle bone inscriptions should have moved from Pan Geng in the late Shang Dynasty to Yin, and Pan Geng moved to Yin about 1300 BC, which means that our civilization started from 1300 BC. We think this statement is unfair, because not only the records in ancient books are much longer than this, but also objective investigations such as archaeology show that the bronze culture of Shang Dynasty has been developed and its civilization has also developed considerably.

Take the characters as an example. How many different words do we know in Oracle Bone Inscriptions? Between four thousand and five thousand. There is no exact figure, because scholars have no consensus on the relationship between interpretation and word segmentation, but it is always between 4 thousand and 5 thousand. Through this order of magnitude, we can know that the characters at that time have developed greatly, and these more than 4 thousand words are not all the characters at that time. Oracle bone inscriptions were used for divination in Shang Dynasty, and the content could not include all aspects of life and cultural phenomena at that time, so it could not include all the words. Today, books on any subject can't cover all the words except dictionaries, so there must be more than 5,000 words at that time. From this point, we can realize that the Shang Dynasty was definitely not a very primitive civilization, and the origin of civilization was much earlier than this. If we add the Xia Dynasty, it will only push forward for more than 400 years. This is not the origin of our civilization, but also push forward.

■: Guodian Chu Bamboo Slips and Shang Bo Chu Bamboo Slips seem to be underground unearthed libraries with rich contents. You expounded the height of ancient civilization in China from here.

●: The problem is that we not only found these books, but also through these books, we should see what level of academic development has reached from the Warring States Period to the early Han Dynasty. Of course, there are also some daily books in these books, such as Japanese books, which are used for luck selection and divination. Their academic value is not high, but they occupy a considerable proportion in advanced academic works, not general works. For example, Guodian bamboo slips, some of which are works by Zi Si, such as the Five Elements, were mentioned by Xunzi in the late Warring States Period. Xunzi's point of view is different from that of Zisi and Mencius, and Xunzi sharply criticized it. The five elements have been lost for a long time, and they are found in Mawangdui silk books and Guodian bamboo slips, which shows that they were very popular at that time. This book is difficult to read. It is about the relationship between human nature and morality. This is a very profound problem, which is beyond the understanding of ordinary people. In Guodian bamboo slips and Xiangbo bamboo slips, there is also a kind of "sexual pretense" or "temperament theory", which is completely abstract. In the past, when we read the Analects of Confucius, we said that "the nature of Confucius' words is the nature of heaven, which cannot be obtained but heard", as if Confucius did not talk about sex or the nature of heaven, but it was not. As a work of Confucius scholars, The Theory of Temperament was completely unknown to us in the past. It discussed heaven, destiny, emotion and so on, and even some philosophical concepts discussed by Neo-Confucianism in Song and Ming Dynasties, which were certainly not understandable by ordinary people at that time. The same is true of Laozi, which not only contains Laozi itself, but also explains some chapters of Laozi, such as Hengxian in Shang Bo bamboo slips, which is also very philosophical. Both Confucianism and Taoism showed us a philosophical world, indicating that philosophy was highly developed at that time.

Through these examples, we can see the height of ancient civilization in China. It is a very important feature to rise to a systematic philosophical theory.

■: When I interviewed several scholars engaged in pre-Qin history, they all had their own views on social and economic patterns. What do you think of this problem?

●: I don't have much research on this issue, but I am more concerned about the history of this issue. The debate on socio-economic forms originated from the debate on social nature and social history in China in the 1930s after the Great Revolution, that is, the international debate on Asian modes of production. Mr. Hou Wailu participated in this discussion in the forties, and his contribution was in the ancient social history of China. 1960 or so, I am working hard on this issue. The notes I made at that time were so thick that I lost them during the Cultural Revolution. If these notes are still there, I can write a lot. Another reason is that I can't keep these things, because I wrote them with a ballpoint pen at that time, but I didn't expect the words to be completely changed and difficult to recognize. Because my work today is mainly in archaeology and ancient philology, I have little research on this issue.

■: Some scholars believe that few scholars engaged in the study of pre-Qin history today think that there is a slave society in China. what do you think?

●: This is a fact. At least many scholars believe that there is no slave society like Greece and Rome.

■: Is it necessary to discuss this issue to a unified conclusion?

●: I don't think it is necessary, but it doesn't mean that you can study history without theory. In 2005, I talked about this issue in the preface of Li Xueqin's Collected Works published by China Academy of Social Sciences. I said that in order to truly reveal the truth of history and culture, in addition to "real" research, there must also be "virtual" guidance, which is theory. Looking back on the last century, there are two most important influences on the reform and development of historical research in pre-Qin period. One is the establishment of modern archaeology, and the other is the spread of Marxist theory, which makes the research have modern characteristics.

■: Finally, I would like to ask you to talk about how you have done so much administrative work for so many years, but you have also achieved so many academic achievements, more than 20 academic works and 500 articles. What is the secret?

●: It can be said that it was forced out. When I was at the archaeological institute, I was ok. I went to the School of History and did some administrative work, from team leader to director. When I do this, I will do another thing at once, which is forced. I have no choice but to hurry. Just like before you came this afternoon, I had finished revising a manuscript.

■: Then your work efficiency is very high!

●: Look at my situation here. How many phone calls interrupted our conversation? Today is still good. A publishing house will come later, have dinner with scholars at night, have a meeting tomorrow, have visitors at night, give lectures to students the day after tomorrow, and go to Zhengzhou the day after tomorrow.

■: It seems that the less time you have, the more time you cherish and the higher your efficiency. On the other hand, people who have a lot of time may gain less if they don't know the value of time.

●: I will agree with you rudely.